Maxim Nohroudi

Why do you think are you so successful?

I think the three core aspects that shaped me were:

Number one: my heritage, my lineage. My background is, on both sides, an emigration background.

Both mother and father left their home. I think this shaped my family, my sister and myself quite a lot, there was always this perspective of other cultures.

Number two: at the age of 19. I joined the paramedic service. Until recently we had military service or civil service in Germany, I chose to work on an ambulance. 

And at the age of 19, obviously, I’ve lived in my bubble, my friends,my family, my school. I never had contact with a homeless person, with someone who was addicted to drugs, with elderly people who are in elderly people’s homes, left alone. So those were experiences during that period from 19-20 years of age, that shaped my personality a lot, being forced out of that bubble and seeing the plurality of life or that there are more colors to what I used to think of was reality.

Number three: And last but not least, very recently, there are also private things that have shaped me a lot. The birth of our children. but I will remain a bit vaguer on this point. The challenges of marriage, and two individuals coming together and learning that they are not now just a couple, but also mother and father. And with all the ups and downs, left and right associated with that. And I think, since I’m being open about this, one thing I learned recently is that I have adult ADHD and that has also had a significant impact on understanding who I am, why I am the way I am, what my impulses are, where they come from.

How do you recharge?

Today? It is mainly my kids.

Just how they behave, how they approach the world, how they perceive things, how they empathize and how they feel joy, is incredible. So today that’s actually where I dedicate most of my time when not working, being with them in nature, going on little hikes and road trips. So that’s what I do most of the time.

Do you have a utopia?

We still really don’t know where we come from and where we are going. So, if you ask me what really is a core driver, it’s more that question: 

Where do we come from and where are we going?

Because I think that’s more substantial than just having a vision for myself. I have goals, I would say. And those goals are probably, I always try to validate and verify my goals in terms of reality. Or maybe I’m too pragmatic already, right?

So maybe at 30 years of age, I would have given you a different answer. At 44 years of age turning 45 soon, I look at goals and where things should be.

Who are we and what are our capacities and our limits I am more interested in these questions.

Where do we come from? Where are we going? What are we like as human beings? How do our impulses arise under certain circumstances? Why can we be so violent on the one hand and so empathetic and caring on the other? And it’s really hard. If you look at our planet from I don’t know, many light years away and look at our species, you would say ‘Isn’t this an interesting bunch?’ On the one hand they really learn amazingly. And on the other hand they are hitting their heads really like the rawest animals. So looking at that, I would define my goals and my direction and where we should go. But since I don’t want to waste time with things that will never work, because as human beings we are who we are, that’s maybe why I’ve become more realistic over time.

You see, with «door2door», the ambition was very ambitious, very visionary. There’s something called the Lisbon study, once conducted by the OECD, I think ten years ago. And they were simulating how an optimized mass transit system in Lisbon could reduce almost 85% of all private vehicles. Obviously, that would have a massive impact on the city, if 85% of the vehicles could be reduced by a fully functioning highly, highly dynamic on-demand public transport system. You would have fewer vehicles on the road, so more space in the city, you would have less congestion, you would have less time spent in traffic jams, etc the effects are clear.

However, human beings like to have their individual car and to sit in their private space if they can at least for some time. So such visions have to be matched with the reality of human beings and their behaviors and their preferences. So it was clear that this vision will always remain a utopia.

Now maybe also because I have kids right now, I don’t feel I have so much time for Utopia.

Yes. I want to spend my time with meaningful things.

Precisely where there can be an impact and not where it’s nice to describe and wish and hope and then work on something, but which never sees the light of day, it will always remain a dream.

«door2door» is successful. But it’s a long way before it gets to the state of the Lisbon study, where we can replace the private vehicles with a fully functioning on demand, autonomous mass transit system.

I think we are in a very fascinating point in time where, driven by technology, we are able to learn more about humanity. Right now, there’s this thing called LiDAR. LiDAR is sort of a sensor where you can see structures even underground. It has become fairly cheap to get LiDAR technology onto a drone. They flew those LiDAR drones over the Amazonas and they suddenly saw vast structures of ancient civilizations that we didn’t even know about.

We get to learn more and more who we are and where we come from. 

I think we’ve really just started to enter that path, allowed, driven by and catalyzed by technology. On the other hand, also driven by technology, we can now look into outer space much more. 

And every year we have to validate or verify theories or perceptions that we had about space, new findings that contradict the standard model that we are following in physics at the moment. I think it is a fascinating time where we will learn more in that regard. And I think through that we will also learn more about ourselves as human beings.

However, as you and I know, when we are in fear and under stress, our brain behaves exactly the way it did a few million years ago. So let’s not become stressed, because without stress we can have all sensors available.

Once we get stressed, it’s very binary. It’s attack or run away.

And the big hope is all this science and research about neuroplasticity and how you can even shape your brain.

That’s what we need to ensure. And that’s why I like any institution and any force that stands for freedom and for plurality and spirit.

But going back to physics, I hope that in physics during my lifetime, we will see new fascinating encounters and see the speed of how new results are produced in science. 

I hope that in physics we will see more to come because those are the fundamental aspects. 

Where do we come from? And where are we going? I think that’s very important. 

Watch the full interview with Maxim Nohroudi

Maxim. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

Thank you for coming. We are here in the building of Axel Springer in Berlin. You work here. You are Co-CEO of Idealo and you have a very special and interesting website. There you say, and I quote: «Hi, I’m Maxim. I’m interested in science, business and people. At the age of 25, I founded an institute, a university institute» and that is so attractive. Then you go on about career and so on.

Could you please tell us yourself, what you think is important in your stages of career. So we can follow a little bit what happened?

Very good question. Yes.

So obviously there’s is the formal biography that you can read on LinkedIn or what I’ve written about. Maybe before we go there, I think the three core aspects that shaped me were,

Number one: my heritage, my lineage.

My father is born in Tehran in 1934 and studied here in Germany in the fifties and sixties, biology and chemistry and stayed here later on as scientist.

Became an entrepreneur. So that’s this lineage. And by the way, also my grandfather studied in the roaring 1920s, here in Berlin. Engineering.

I think he, that’s what my family says, I never met him, he had a time of his life here. In the 20s y mom comes from a family of butchers from East Germany. And my grandfather and grandmother fled from East Germany in the mid 1950s. In 56, if I’m correct. So, my background is on both sides an emigration background.

Both mother and father left their home. So I think this shaped my family, my sister and myself quite a lot. It was not a topic that we talked about at all actually. But subconsciously, obviously the experiences of emigrating from A to B does something to you as father and mother and subsequently also to you as a son and daughter. So, I think that shaped me.

Number one a lot. And my dad’s family, both of them emigrated then later on to the United States, when in 1979 there was the Islamic Revolution.

At a very young age, we always went to the U.S. visiting my family. And that brought me out of my bubble, right?

I had my German bubble, I was brought up in kindergarten and junior school.

But there was always this perspective of other cultures. Primarily the Persian and the US-American in the early years.

And again, my mom comes from a family of butchers and they worked with their hands and are very robust. Also highly traumatized by war, that part of the family. So I think that was number one.

Number two: at the age of 19. I joined the paramedic service. In Germany we had until recently, military service or civil service, And I chose to work on an ambulance. And with age 19, obviously, again, you’ve had your bubble, your friends, your family at school. I never had contact with a homeless person, with someone who was addicted to drugs, with elderly people who are in elderly homes left alone. So those were experiences during that period at 19-20 years of age, that shaped my personality a lot. Being forced out of that bubble and seeing the plurality of life or that there are more colors to what I used to think of is reality.

And last but not least, very recently, also private things that shaped me a lot. The birth of our children. and I stay on this part a bit vaguer.

The challenges of marriage, and two individuals coming together and learning that they are not only now a couple, but also mother and father. And with all the ups and downs, left and right associated with that. And I think, one thing, since I’m open with this, I learned recently that I have adult ADHS and that has also had significant impacts on understanding who I am, why I am the way I am, how my impulses are, where they are coming from.

I’d say you don’t find these three things on my LinkedIn profile or in any biography.

However, they are important pieces of my DNA, who I am right now. But you wanted to talk about the career paths.

No, that’s much more interesting. I’m really thankful you are so open. What do you think drives you?

The empathy part, certainly, I don’t know how much it is part of someone’s core DNA or how it is or what’s the foundation of it.

Clearly, the social set up I was being exposed to, right? So with both parents from different cultures, also with very different core personalities, being empathetic to know what does Dad do, what does Mom do, what do they talk about, and what do they mean when they talk about what they talk about?

Empathy certainly becomes a skill to be trained and learn to really understand what my opposite is really saying when he or she is saying it. What’s the motivation behind it. What’s the root consideration behind it. And then obviously the…, I didn’t mention, I spent time in Canada during high school years, which in my time many people did, in the US or Canada, New Zealand, etc. That shaped me certainly also.

But, however, to me that was not really a culture shock because I felt Canada, the Canadian culture, was in many points very similar to the European culture since the roots are also quite similar. Now those three facets certainly shaped my life.

I started to study in a small town in Bavaria, Bayreuth, it’s called.

I didn’t stay there for too long because it was too cold there, the weather. But seriously, I wanted actually to study in a classical British-American bachelor perspective.

I didn’t know what I wanted to do with a kind of fundamental studies. And in Germany you had, at that time, to decide early on, basically your major and your master and you couldn’t go left and right.

When I started business in Bayreuth it was just business. and I was interested in Kant, in the philosophy of colors and so on. It was not possible to look into those topics beyond your core studies. So that’s when I then found out there was another interesting university in Germany that offers these fundamental studies as part of your degree. And that’s when I switched there and it was beautiful to learn about the philosophy of the right and take Taekwondo courses, and understanding theater, plays and analyzing them and playing them.

So that was part of then the business studies which I did. And actually, it was probably the surviving factor for me to finish my degree, because I felt business studies in itself was a bit dull.

So, from there, I stayed some time at Royal Dutch Shell in London because they had a very interesting approach on developing strategy, which is scenarios.

In the 1960s they started to do this. This has to do with Royal Dutch Shell’s association with MIT.

In Boston, and MIT was the scientific place that did the war games for the Pentagon and war games are actually scenarios, to think of how a war could play out. And MIT then adopted those war game theory and approach into a kind of business approach thinking in scenarios determining a corporate strategy. And Shell was one of the very first companies to adopt this.

And one of the scenarios they played was the oil crisis. What happens if OPEC stops delivering oil? They did that in the late sixties.

And boom, if I may say shit hits the fan a few years later. 

And Shell due through that scenario thinking and applying those results from their scenario planning into action. They diversified, they invested into not only oil but gas and soon renewables. And that’s why they were better equipped once the oil crisis then hit.

I wanted to learn scenario planning and I learned that at Royal Dutch Shell and my task was to develop scenarios for climate change. How will climate change affect our planet, our business, our competitors. And that was in 2004. It was great because with Shell’s resources, I was allowed to meet all, not all, but many experts around the world from various fields, giving their perspectives on how climate change will evolve over the next 20, 50, 100, 300 years. And still I’m connected to the network.

I learned a lot about climate change, and I learned I didn’t want to work for Royal Dutch Shell. It is a great company, but it was a corporate career and not an entrepreneurial career. And I learned I maybe feel more entrepreneurial. I need to execute my own ideas and be responsible for that, both if it fails and if it succeeds. I went back to Germany and we started the University Institute on Corporate Governance, which was aimed at looking at how supervisory boards function in Central Europe.

There’s the saying: «The fish smells from the top».

This is a German saying translated in a very bad way to English. So the supervisory boards the entity of a corporate organization that supervises the management board, and at that time, we are now, in 2005, it was still a routine that former executives immediately switched from a management role into the supervisory role. Often men, often very old. And it was not a profession regarded in most cases as a full-time job. However, it is quite a full-time job to supervise such a big corporation. And the whole idea actually initiated at Royal Dutch Shell because in 2004, Royal Dutch Shell had a huge corporate governance scandal.

Royal Dutch Shell at that time was not one company. It was a joint venture of Shell, the British part, and Royal Dutch, the Dutch part, and it was two companies that had a contract, how they were kept together and under this contract, it was possible that a part of the data about the oil reserves were, let’s say, a bit tweaked.

The value of oil companies, at the stock exchange is mainly the value of their resources underground: gas and oil. And the scientists can be pretty sure and accurate how much that is.

So, if you have to correct your oil reserves, let’s say, by a few percentages, you know something stinks, something smells. Something’s wrong right here. And it was a corporate governance problem. And that was the the origin and the initiation. I was part of a task force of analyzing what had gone wrong there. And we worked with the London Stock Exchange, New York Stock Exchange, with other official agencies in the US. It was very interesting to learn how tough the US acts if they feel numbers on stock exchange are not correct.

So, the SEC was involved, So that was the origin from then starting that institute at the university and that was actually my first real career step.

Being a founder it was my first startup of that institute and that’s where then my career actually started. So that was a big round to get to that point.

And then you went on being entrepreneur and had this «door to door» start up with the aim to have less traffic in the towns.

Well, a few things more happened, actually.

I’ll try to be a bit more lean. Otherwise we the sun will set and we’re still talking.

So that institute’s goal was to change German European corporate law. And we succeeded. we played some small role in making supervisory boards in Germany more professional. I then became provost and vice president of that university at the age of 28, which I felt at that time is great to do. Today, I feel it was the biggest mistake in my life.

It was way too early. I think Henry Kissinger once said, compared to the White House, Harvard is full of snakes. And I would say University is full of strong egos. I wouldn’t exclude myself from that. But there were other egos much stronger. And I was clearly too young and too inexperienced for that role.

However, the university was in a crisis at that time, and the management team at that time did an incredible job saving the university from going into difficult waters. But that’s a very different story.

However, I did that career step and it was good to feel the pressure of a company being under extreme stress and working under extreme stress. So that was the experience there. 

When I left that role, a very good friend of mine, Tom, and I had the idea: What’s next? Do we want to continue in that kind of academic management role that we had started or still young, we’re in our thirties, the Internet is growing, on top of the Internet we can build many great solutions, and we looked at mainly two topics. One was a topic in Madison and the other topic was transportation. So providing technology to companies, doing ride sharing, ride pooling, micro transit and providing the software. And that was the idea behind door to door. Obviously, we had some pivots, which means we tested a few things but eventually that’s what the company did, it became a big company with all ups and downs of an entrepreneurial life.

We then merged with a company in the Middle East because we were complementary and together, we then went to the New York Stock Exchange. We did an IPO, which also was an incredible experience. With all facets. And then, one and a half years later, I left the company and I took a year off to recalibrate. And then last summer, I was approached by this company to join and be part of the management team of IDEALO. So that’s where I’m right now.

Do you have sort of a role model? 

Usually they disillusion me at one point in time. So once oneself matures, you see: Ah, maybe not. Yes, of course I had various, I met, I encountered various personalities, who had facets in their personality, which I felt were, let’s say, superpowers.

But usually you also learn every person is more complimentary than just that superpower.

They remain human beings. with one or several facet that attract, but also others

Today my kids are my idols, because their perception of the world and their playfulness and their innocence is really unique.

So, you have a great impact from your family. Do you also get an impact on your life by nature or art?

Today? As I said, it’s mainly my kids.

I find a lot of art, beauty and inspiration first of all in my memories, being reminded of my own inner child once again and my childhood. So, things come up back, but clearly just how my children behave, how they approach the world, how they perceive, how they empathize and how they feel joy is incredible. So today that’s actually where I dedicate most of my time with when not working, being with them in nature, going on little hikes and road trips. So that’s what I do most of the time.

Actually, I’m not so much the person looking at a piece of art and staying focused for 3 hours there. I would rather want to engage with the artist and discuss with the artist.

You know, unfortunately, most of them are dead, So I would then rather try to find out and read about that person on what, why he created it or why she was driven by creating that piece. It’s the curiosity about people.

Because I want to understand. It’s like peeling that onion. I want to get to that root cause.

Which is also helpful driving and leading a company, do not remain at the surface and do not be superficial, but really go to the root cause and understand what are the core drivers. And if you want to navigate this ship, you really need to understand how all the pieces work together and what will happen if you do something here, what will be the impact on other parts of the organization.

You mentioned: I’m a business angel.

You said, I devote most of my time and energy in helping people, businesses, campuses, companies are also individuals. So you are not only just advisor, investor also.

So I must say I haven’t updated that website now for I think a year. And that was written when I started my garden leave in my free time. But even before I, I wouldn’t say I’m a good investor, I’m not, an investor needs a lot of money in order to finance very good research, in order to be able to invest wisely. Since I don’t have billions and can have a team of 20 people doing research, obviously my bets and my investments are very narrow. And probably to be honest, it also has facet of hobby to it, I’m not a professional investor.

However, there are teams that are approaching me that have found their product market fit and now want to scale and they always encounter the same obstacles. And they are very often associated with the founder of the organization. And it’s like having a kid growing up.

A kid of three years of age needs a different father and mother than a kid of 20 years of age. And an organization is similar like a kid, it grows, it becomes more and more independent. And therefore, also the role of the founders needs to evolve and cannot be stagnant. And that typically is a is one of the core hindering factors of many successful companies.

Because the founders will not evolve with the maturity of the organization «Oh it was so nice, five years ago when we were all sitting around the table and having a coffee». And it’s like telling your son or daughter who has just graduated, «Oh it was so nice when I was able to change your diapers», but your son and daughter would say, «Yeah, that was nice, but don’t you dare to put a diaper on me now, right? I’m 18». And it’s the same with a company.

It also becomes an adult and therefore the founders have to change and evolve in their role and their approach towards their company I talk a lot about all the technical instruments and approaches and processes that are relevant for the companies to grow. But I have observed very often that part is not spoken about. The company can become big if the individuals particularly the founders are happy with what’s happening but very often, they’re kind of hesitant.

Because they don’t feel comfortable with it. And that is something I have an eye on, I’m very often called when the company is about to take off, but the founding team cannot let go, but there’s a new role for them.

It’s like father and mother. The role with a ten year old kid is not to change the diapers. It’s to help the kid with their homework. So, there’s something new, but you have to let go the former part. In business life when I watch growing companies I get involved in all these patterns or mechanisms. And since I have been a founder myself, I can relate to the frustration not being the right person anymore. That doesn’t feel good. And your team doesn’t tell you. They become passive aggressive. Because on the one side they love you and they know you’re the founder. On the other side, they all know you’re not catering to their needs and you’re behaving like a parent figure who is not suitable for the maturity of the organization anymore. And having had that experience myself and had the challenge to evolve myself under very painful circumstances, it makes it easier for me to engage in such conversations with founders.

And they definitely need somebody from outside and definitely need someone who has had that experience. Very often venture capitalists come in and say, «You must do this, must do that». And when those investors haven’t had that founder’s journey themselves, it’s hard for them to relate. It’s hard for them to then establish a connection which is necessary to have really meaningful conversations . We have to try to cross that bridge leading to that new chapter together. And when that happens, founders can become an extremely powerful multiplier for the success of the company And if it doesn’t happen, it will be very often the opposite.

There are many companies out there with immense potential, but who cannot grow, who have that glass ceiling because the founders have difficulties to let go.

That’s very tough. And as you said before they do not talk really to each other.

It is a very intimate thing to admit I might not be the right the first chapter. Admitting it is another chapter. Talking about it with others is another chapter. And that doesn’t too often happen. Founders need help on that journey. As much as mothers and fathers, I feel I need help on that journey of parenthood, I think we as a society, are not so great at that. I think we are still learning how to help parents on that journey.

Do you have a utopia?

I suppose very early on, I exchanged utopias with other topics.

So the idea of how something or the world should be, these thoughts do not fascinate me so much. There are much more interesting questions. The empathy drove me to learn how we function as human beings and we are an interesting creature, aren’t we? So still we really don’t know where we come from and where we go. A core driver is that question: Where do we come from and where do we go?

Because I think that’s much more substantial than just having a vision.

I for myself have goals, and I falsify and verify my goals all the time. And I want to achieve them.

Maybe I’m too pragmatic already, right? Maybe with 30 years of age, I would have given you a different answer. With 44 years of age turning 45 soon, I look at goals and how things should be, but I don’t want to describe unachievable dreamy visions. How are human beings, who are we and what’s our capacities and what’s our limits? this is what I’m most interested in, again:

where do we come from? Where do we go? What’s our, how are we as human beings? How do our impulses come up under certain circumstances? Why can we be so violent on the one side and so empathetic and caring on the other side? And it’s really hard. If you look at our planet from many light years away and look at our species, you would say isn’t this an interesting bunch? On the one hand they really learn amazingly. And on the other hand they are hitting their heads as ever. So looking at that,I define my goals and my direction and where we should go. But since I don’t want to waste time with things that will never work, out because we are as human beings and we are who we are, that’s maybe why I’ve become more realistic all the time.

You see, with the company «door2door», the ambition was to develop an optimal software which had the effect to reduce the individual traffic in the cities.I think that was something very ambitious, very visionary. there’s this «Lisbon study», once conducted by the OECD, I think ten years ago. Within they were simulating how an optimized mass transit system in Lisbon could reduce almost 85% of all private vehicles. Obviously, that has massive impact on the city, if 85% of the vehicles can be replaced by a fully functioning highly, dynamic on demand public transport system. You have less vehicles on the road, more space in the city, you have less congestion, less time spent in traffic jams, etc. So, the effects are huge and impressive.

However, human beings like to have, at least for some time, their individual car and want to sit in their private space if they can. So it is, such visions have to be matched with the reality of human beings and their behaviors and their preferences. So it was clear that this vision will always remain an utopia. 

Now because I have kids I I have not much time left for Utopia.

I want to spend my time with meaningful things where I can be an impact and not where It’s nice to describe and wish and hope and then work on something, that will never see the face of the earth, not even a tiny bit. It will always remain a dream.

But «door2door» is successful.

But it’s a long way to get to the state of the Lisbon study, where we can replace the private vehicles with a fully functioning on demand, autonomous mass transit.

But I think it’s quite impressive knowing about human realities, human traits and our sometimes obvious incapacity of learning that you stay so optimistic.

Number one, I think we live in a very fascinating period of time: driven by technology, we are able to learn so much more, we get so much new information. So right now there’s this thing called LiDAR, it is sort of sensor, based on laser beams, which shows structures even underground and it has become fairly cheap to get LiDAR or technology onto a drone. And they flew those LiDAR drones over the Amazonas and they saw suddenly vast structures of ancient civilizations that we don’t even know about. So we get to learn, I think, more and more who we are and who we come from. And I think we’ve really just started to enter that path, allowed and driven and catalyzed by technology. So that on the other hand, driven by technology, we can now look much deeper into the outer space. And every year we have to verify theories or perceptions that we had about the universe.

And if you look into physics, as you see, I’m more interested into the science part and into physics.To see what’s going on in physics right now and how physicists all around the world are looking at our surroundings.what have we been doing over the last 20, 30 years? What has come out of our fundamental research in the last 20 or 30 years? I mean, think back a 100 or 150 years ago, all the phenomenal findings in physics, Every 5 to 10 years, x rays and chemistry involved in that too but led to the atomic and hydrogen bomb. but in the first part of the 20th century, I mean, physics was just delivering like crazy and fundamental physics research. Now it’s become a bit calm.

What’s the reason behind that? Are we on the wrong path? Did we follow a false theoretical approach? And there’s an incredible conflict in the physics community. New findings that contradict the standard model that we are following in physics at the moment. I think it is a fascinating time in which we will learn more in that regard. And I think by that we will also learn more about us as human beings.

Another thing is, you and me a 100 years ago didn’t have that immense access to knowledge that we have today. The learning curve for us as human beings today is much steeper than for any civilization living before us, at least that we know about. I think that is fascinating too.

Today we can detect much more patterns of things that are going on right now in Europe, we see we have situations like the 1910s, 1920s, well, maybe like the 1890s, I don’t know, but even being able to have access to this vast amount of knowledge will change us as a species, as mankind. However, as you and I know, our brain, when we are in fear or under stress, functions exactly the way as a few million years ago. But that’s also a fact. So let’s not get into stress, because only without it we have all our ressources available.

Once we get into stress, the reflexes take over, it gets very binary. It’s attack or run away.

The big hope is the science about neuroplasticity and how you can even shape your brain. My hope lies in science.

That’s what we need to ensure. And that’s why I like any institution and force that is for freedom and for plurality and spirit.

But coming back to the physics part, I think the very interesting part will be the discussion about gravity. I don’t really know how gravity works. I know what gravity is, from the school book, now the discussion comes up in the physics community: How can we replicate it and ho what could we do if we were able to work with gravity? If we could build gravity ourselves? I mean, that would bring us into a new dimension.

And that’s why I hope that in physics during my lifetime, we will see new fascinating encounters and looking at the speed of how new results are being produced in science. not in fundamental physics, but in other areas.

I hope that in physics we see more to come because those are the fundamental aspects. Where do we come from? And where do we go? I think that’s very important.

We have here the perfect example. We are in the old part of Axel Springer and we move now over to the new building.